Daniel:I was thinking about how to start this conversation off but that's out the window......I think I'm just going to jump right in. It seems to me that manhood nowadays has been restricted to a few things that have nothing to do with maturity level.....sexual prowess, material possessions, and the image that you portray to the outside world.....the tougher the better usually...it irks me that what really makes a man gets placed on the backburner.....such as the heart, the concern for others and the ability to build....not to mention if you mention anything that has to do with Jesus you automatically get blacklisted as a "holy roller" by most.....Anthony:I agree. The value system in America has gone down the drain. However, it is due in large part to one thing: Television. Once meant for entertainment and news, it has now become the de facto parent for our children, as well as babysitter. The outlines for being a 'man' now can all be traced to the TV/movie industry. Sexual prowess - how many times have we seen the 'cool' character get all of the women? And isn't he lauded for being able to philander and no one care? Material possessions - this is a big hit in the Black community. Rappers started showing off...women began to give them attention...the gaudiness grew, and so did the attention. Then, somewhere along the way, a notion that having material would bring droves of women was disseminated. ...I'm sure 'bling bling' had something to do with that. And on a subconscious level, the fact that most major male stars have nice bodies is telling men that their appearance is paramount. Couple that with how shallow women can be, thanks to TV and music, and you create a fixation on having a 'manly' body.Daniel:Yep. Bro it's almost like that carrot they dangle in front of a racehorse to keep it chasing and running in the cultivated belief that they can one day run it down but no matter how fast they run, the carrot is always just out of reach. It is much the same with manhood as defined by society's means. they give you a false definition of manhood and tell you to chase these things the whole time knowing that it is in fact an unattainable goal. But you see the real problem there is the parents have stopped teaching the children how to be and have instead allowed the media influence to teach them how they should seem. Too busy chasing down their own rabbits that they will never attain to teach the child that to attain their own dreams they must conquer it one step at a time instead of this breakneck pace that leads them straight to the glue factory.Anthony:Indeed. The largest problem, in my opinion, is the death of innocence, and lack of vulnerability. Innocence is the insulation that keeps a young mind warm in this cold world. It fosters dreams, imagination, it is what gives a child that sparkle in their eye. But now, children are exposed to real life at such a young age...they are jaded before they can ever know what the word means. That is why you see so many Black children acting 'grown;' they're literally acting like what they're exposed to. And since they start out ghetto like that, that's the way they'll grow, and that's how they'll stay. The lack of vulnerability is what is hurting love. No one wants to take a chance and let someone in anymore...it's all about self-preservation. People don't realize that to love is to preserve self, as you become one with another, you forge a bond that will last beyond the limits of time, a legacy that cannot be tarnished. Love is an inoculation...it can protect you from the ills of the world, for it is immensely deep. But that has been lost...it is now about instant gratification (which has been subconsciously inculcated by the Lotto and fast food), and pleasure of self (which has been inculcated by media and video games). With these two things lacking, the man cannot be himself, and the woman doesn't want to be herself.Daniel:Exactly bro. that's where you get that whole overindependent woman/shallow man concept at....a man by nature is a well rounded being but you take him away from who he is by nature and replace what should nurture with that which beats him down and what you get is a man who is half of what he ought to be. And we all know that half a man is no man at all....but to feign like he is a man, he takes what is around tells him masculinity is and attempts to blow it up and make those blown up pieces appear to be a whole man. Whereas the overindependent woman is a product of Willie Lynchism that hasn't been filtered out of our culture yet....it's even been supported, commercialized and encouraged by the mothers the whole while it's killing our family. Because if a woman can be just like a man, is there a need for the man anymore? All she needs him for then is procreation and that makes a mockery out of the man further which then pushes him to become even more of the carbon copy of false manhood because he sees that this is what draws the woman. Sexual prowess. and it destroys us from the inside out.Anthony:Yessir. A man leaves when he is not needed. (sees Black men leaving Black women to go to other races) In some cases, he will even go FIND a place to be needed. (sees White men 'saving' underprivileged Black women) Women can do many of the things that men do, but that's a credit to how amazing they are, not a suggestion that they should. But with the emasculation of the man, they feel as though the must fill those shoes. And men don't even see what's going on...they just keep feeding into this. Men support the double standard, the "I have a lot of sex, I'm cool; she does it, she's a ho." Men swear by this...so they go have a lot of sex. Sex is a connecting interaction...every time you do it, you give a piece of yourself. Men are losing themselves in the pleasure of the flesh. Women hate the standard, and attempt to beat it; they are then either chastised by society, or end up losing themselves in the quest to beat men, a quest they take up out of a perceived necessity, though it isn't. There's nothing wrong with ambition, but when unchecked, it can be a problem...all that glitters isn't gold, but glitter can be blinding, and gold be desired. So as women strive to do their best, men are mired in doing less.Daniel:yeah men lie to themselves a lot about that specific double standard.....the big problem is that the man doesn't have an actual standard for conduct because he's lost touch with self and lost touch with God in the bigger picture so he does seek to find himself in fleshly measures but by the time he figures out the more women he falls into physically the deeper he falls into spiritual depravity and so the circle closes over on itself much like a Black hole the farther you go the deeper you sink and the harder it is to find light....Women on the other hand are expected to uphold some strict moral code which obviously doesn't extend to the man...thus you have a world full of ladies and few gentleman because being a gentleman usually isn't positively encouraged by the male population. But then that creates a world of insanity because somebody has to be sleeping with these men who seek to find their masculinity in a woman's birth canal. There is no real standard anymore, just what is more or less acceptable....back in the day there were expected standards set by parents and if the male didn't meet these standards, he was instantly dismissed. But with the whole I gotta get mines generation came the neglect of raising children in the interest of providing a living.Anthony:I agree. And sadly, it's a simple formula. Men feel best with their mothers as they grow up...and so they go back from whence they came, the vagina, to feel good. Women feel best with attention, so they stick to whatever means, whoring, golddigging, etc., to feel good. Men love that intimate care of a mother...and there's nothing that makes a woman intimate like sex (in their minds), so that's how they get that feeling back. It's ephemeral and fleeting though, so it ends up become a constant need. For women, they love the attention they receive...but rather than take it in stride, some begin to feed off of it...and begin to do anything to parlay that attention into gain, be it money, material, whatever. And that's how they get caught up. They all forget that with God as your vehicle and the Universe as your guide, the trip will always lead you in the right direction. Love is Him...so to love Him is to be with Him. And the Universe flows like a river...so you are constantly being swept at the proper paces for proper situations. Neither would ever place more than one can bear. Alas, our people have forsaken love, and walked out of the river. We try to beat our own path, with no direction but what we've been shown through the media. We are lost sheep...and the TV/movie/music industries continue to herd us.Daniel:That I defintely agree with....we have forgotten how to be lovers. Real lovers. Not this synonym with sexual partners but actual real lovers. Lovers of others before we love self, to me was one of the more hard to grasp teachings of Jesus. Especially in light of the fact that ever since the fall mankind has been inclined to self-gratify.....it got so bad at one point to where God sorrowed at the iniquity committed one against another....and Jesus has pointed out that if will be as in the days of Noah.....that phrase in the days does mean that mankind will be just as evil one to another as they were in the days that God sorrowed at iniquity upon the Earth....which is definitely saying something about our level of depravity. Anything as long as it makes me feel good has become humankind's unofficial motto....it can most easily be seen in the Catholic abuse scandal where these men molest children for no other apparent reason....apparently the judgement against them from God's mouth does not register with them as enough to refrain from participating in such acts of debauchery and depravity. Yet no one wants to escape from these lying spirits which have conditioned us to accept whatever looks like it benefits us when in reality it will all too happily kill us off and the spirits smile while it happens.Anthony:Religion has become a bastion...whenever one wants an exculpatory pass from sin, they go to church and 'find' God. God is not some lost toy or plaything that you can just pick up when you want. The lack of true faith and love in reference to Him, is at the crux of our issues. If a man is a man of God, and lives as such, he will live to be what he is meant and was born to be. If a woman is a woman of God, the same will hold true. There needs to be more rigidity with that...but everything is relative. Those that fail subsequently shine a light on those of us that succeed. (leaves for work)